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:star: … ''When I began this life-changing project, I knew next to nothing about Johann Sebastian Bach. I never had guitar lessons or any music teacher. I played folk music, blues, ragtime and jazz. When I was first smitten with the desire to transcribe the Bach Cello Suites, my only intention was to put them on the guitar and then record them. That was it. And as I was approaching my 60th birthday, I felt it was now or never!

Now, in addition to the Recordings and iBooks, I have created a Concert-length, Multi-media Presentation:

                  From Tragedy to Transcendence
        Bach, Casals and the Six Suites for Cello Solo

  ... And I am taking it on tour.'':banjogrin: by Helen-Baq

:star: As you can hear from his enthusiastic and delectable entrée (colourfully spiced up by us Deviants!) ~ Steven's mission is to present to you the gift of Humanity :rose: ~ of Johann Sebastian Bach, to bring his struggles and triumphs forth as experiences - which we all can find a little of ourselves in – and so together, through the vast fields of time, art and life, resonate in harmony with the man and his music.

Air Guitar Hero by de-Mote Well measured yet feeling strings: organic guitar playing of Steven Hancoff streams from folk and jazz – elements which add to the main interpretation: Bach is the Source for those nimble fingers to instinctively go to - and for minds to creatively sparkle! Therefore, as a lecturer and performer Steven shines in his artistic and technical part – and, due to his own unique musical combination of care and devotion - you can be sure to bask yourself in warm burst of pure poetic energy! :music:

:heart: Through practice and perfectionism - he gives from his heart.

So please check the list – if the city there named is spot on or near you,
do grab that bus ticket and treat yourself to the wonderful encounter! :headphones: by crula

:star: Steven's Tour Schedule (2016)

July 16 – 18, Downstairs Cabaret
Rochester, NY

July 20, Courthouse Center for the Arts
West Kingston, RI

July 21 -  Black Box Theater
Mansfield, MA

July 23 - Southern Vermont Arts Center
Manchester, VT

July 24 – Temple Sinai
Burlington, VT

July 29 - Colonial Theatre
Bethlehem, NH

July 31 - Tillotson Center
Colebrook, NH

August 5 – St. Lawrence Arts Center
Portland, ME

August 6 -Frontier
Brunswick, ME

August 7 - Strand Theatre
Rockland, Maine

Maritimes Vacation

August 28 - Eastport Arts Center
Eastport, Maine

August 31 - Nantucket Athenaeum
Nantucket, MA

September 3 - Snow Library
Orleans, MA

September 6 - Truro Library
Truro, MA

September 8 - Moses Greeley Parker Lecture Series
Lowell, MA    

September 10 - New Hampshire Theatre Project
Portsmouth, NH

September 11 - JCOGS
Stowe, VT

September 14 - Theatre 82
Cranston, RI

September 16 - Newport Mansions – The Elms
Newport, RI

September 18 - Guilderland Library
Albany, NY

September 22 - Whitney Center for the Arts
Pittsfield, MA

September 23 - Hubbard Hall
Cambridge, NY

… and a few more!   (Will be updated! :))

:bulletorange: eMail:

:bulletorange: FaceBook:…

:bulletorange: Twitter:

(Images used with permission! :))

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:iconjosephhaydnplz::iconburningheartplz::iconmichaelhaydnplz::iconsaysplz:... WELCOME! ;)

... Saturated FOOD for THOUGHTS ...

Always something new here ... We edit as we hop along!


:bulletpink: NOT for the faint of heart: Scepticism and Revisionism: Taboga & Luchesi controversy:… (feel free to ask questions regarding!) It may help clear up or discover a few things, probably shave off of *arranger* Joseph's opus extra 400 works too. Not to speak of the rest of the musical world ... Here's Haydn & Pleyel case, insight into copyright-pre-copyright:… See *New Grove Haydn* 2002 onwards for attributions, spurious or ''with his approval'' works, etc.:… ... Chill, this goes for many a composer - good to know! This group truly accepts ALL music(-related stuff)!

... With THIS hot topic taken care of ~ put on your wig and let's dig the gig! ;)

:bulletgreen: *In Search of Haydn* -…
(you'll need to install IP-changing program to watch if outside USA.)

:bulletgreen: Also BBC:…

:bulletgreen: 3SAT (in German language):…

:bulletgreen: Kids these days ... FAN! - documentary:…

:bulletgreen: ... PUPPET OPERAS! - ''Haydns Nacht'' can be bought at: *… or *…

:star: MUSEUMS and HOUSES: HaydnHaus Wien:… * HaydnHaus Eisenstadt: * Mike Haydn Society: * Mike Haydn Salzburg Museum:…

:bulletgreen: FORUMS, SOCIETIES: Haydnesque Forum:… * JH Great Britain: * North America www.haydnsocietyofnorthamerica… * Handel & Haydn Society: * Mike H: * 2009 Haydn BLOG:

:star: BooKs, INFO pages:

:bulletgreen: MICHAEL Haydn's SCORES, enter keywords at your convenience:…

:bulletgreen: A well of wisdom, history and knowledge: selection of Haydn's LETTERS (Eng.):… &… (82!!!)

:bulletgreen: Kenneth Woods Blog:… :heart:

:bulletgreen: Bits about the quartets:…

:bulletgreen: Haydn Database:…

:bulletgreen: Fine ''HAYDN STUDIES'' (& so on, just click the book covers, via Google books):… or *Search inside* ... & ''Haydn SYMPHONIES'', spurious or otherwise, by Landon:… (neat case-file! See also: Haydn: Chronicle and Works. If you find it.) Haydn & Classical Variation:…

:bulletgreen: Heaps of FREE books, scores and whatnot from……

:bulletgreen: Complete Jo Haydn bookography from OpenLibrary:…
and Mike Haydn:

:bulletgreen: Downloadable PDF: Joseph Haydn und sein Bruder Michael: zwei Bio-bibliographische Künstler-Skizzen:…

:bulletgreen: Downloadable PDF: Joseph Haydn's English Diary (1794-95):…

:bulletgreen: LISTS of compositions: MIKE:… JO:…

:bulletgreen: JO short BIO's:… &… &… MIKE's on Mozart forum:…

:star: Pretty close, albeit un-pockmarked likeness: Anton Grassi, cca 1799.

:star: SCORES and musical ARTICLES:

:bulletgreen: Article: Haydn-the-Yurodivy:…

:bulletgreen: Article: Haydn & Canon:…

:bulletgreen: Article: Haydn & Opera:…

:bulletgreen: Score: Canons from around the world:… (various composers, Hayd.& Moz.) JO's Canons (in handwriting):… list of:…

:bulletgreen: Mike H. Collection (small, *sob*):,…

:bulletgreen: Jo H. Collection (extensive, yay!):,… & list:…

:star: MUSIC:

:bulletgreen: Michael: (27 symphonies, Divertimento's, Serenade, 3X Masses, 2 Requiems, 4 concerts & misc.):…

:bulletgreen: Joseph (1165 files, so dig in!):…
He was NOT the ''father of symphony'' - Sammartini and others were:… Haydn learned/copied from them (as even the great CPE had considerable doubts into his own abilities - whether or not his works will reach the standard set for his listeners by GBS.)


:bulletpink: Fun ;) and eerie :fuzzydemon: ANECDOTES:

;) Jo Haydn and Wolf Mozart had TWIN pianos.

;) Bursting a bubble: the way I heard it growing up:…

;) Somehow, Jo got credited with 240 + symphonies. Of which he ''only'' wrote about 106.

;) Michael Haydn DETESTED plagiarism; as a young boy he founded society which detected nicking of themes, melodies & music by other composers - he demanded Original Creativity = a trademark throughout his life. The ONE article that explores possibility of Haydn recanting, is:…
~ And, when push comes to shove =P I found J. A. Hasse's Requiem from 1763, second 1 minute long bit. Short, but essentially the same - Michael's Req-in-C sequence. Gotcha!

:fuzzydemon: TWO in one go - pardon - grave: Maria Anna (Marianne, Nannerl) Mozart and Mike Haydn share the SAME *six-feet-under*:… which may imply they were musical colleagues and equals. Due to a fellow who wanted to study the ''musical bump'' on Jo's head, mausoleum now holds TWO skulls: his & ''fake''…. Curiously, Mike too got parted with his head; deeply grieving widow asked for permission to nick & clean it: she then kept her husband's skull right at her side - on the night stand (it was put in the urn on top of the monument erected in his memory - now it's under lock and key in a safe), while his :heart: heart is kept separately in a shrine in St. Peter's Churchyard Cemetery in Salzburg. He was much loved and, despite ''excessive wine (and beer and ...) episodes and a musical style that was never far from a tavern or a dance hall'' (really, a waltz in a mass?!! - COOL!) - RESPECTED (so that's why his bits are scattered all over the place! Must be a good luck charm.)

:bulletpink: Did-You-Know's:

- That around 1780, newly written Church edict demanded that the church music should be from then on composed in entirely simple manner (no fugues, no huge orchestra, ah, life of a Kapellmeister had to suck big time ... *snores*)

Random from Featured

:iconflowersplz: Feel free to SUGGEST ARTWORKS for this folder!



:bulletblue: Nicely formed, witty and elegant. ... Rollin'& chillin'!!! Group is broadly based, thanks for stopping by!:wave:

:iconmusicnotesplz::iconchampagneplz:... Now that we got your attention :D

- a cheerful group of cosy proportions, dedicated to bubbly brothers

:empllama:JOSEPH and MICHAEL -- HAYDN:emplllama:

HAYD'N ... seek by DarkSaxeBleu ... The OTHER ... Haydn by DarkSaxeBleu

... :rose: (who do not only ''share'' in the *AWESOME* - but EACH ADDS EXTRA to it!)

... With heaps of other pickled Curiosities! :jarkinajar: (Feel FREE to suggest them!)

:iconrainbow-pplz::iconrainbow-aplz::iconrainbow-rplz::iconrainbow-tplz::iconrainbow-yplz: .. :iconrainbow-oplz::iconrainbow-nplz::iconrainbow-exclamation:

While tipsy Michael, admired & frequently copied :squee: by Mozart,

retained his dignity & cool with awesome FUGUES and major SACRAL works,

frisky Joseph, true to the Form, Logic and Balance -

wrote jolly gorgeous! concertos for *HURDY-GURDY* =P

and Operas for Prince Nikolaus' *PUPPET* theatre.

* ... Cricket sound ... * :lol: :bulletgreen:… :iconkermityayplz:
(... Here's a hint: if it sounds ridiculous:icontrollfaceplz:- it probably is;

Jo's frequently using irony; making ACID jokes and poking fun out of his audience; after all,

writing music-to-order can be rather depressing, especially in a mosquito ridden swamp

combined with shortage of desirable women. Oh, the tragedy. :nuu:)


While Mikey was pretty much dignified, stuck in his own demanding stylish branch,

after all - he had to live up to the ultra-prominent position of Konzertmeister (etc.) in Salzburg -

mostly autodidactic Jo had a bit of a bug up his aR$€ during the creative period

and looked everywhere (chiefly in himself) for new expressions in music -

seriously: stuck in a bog, :hexentanz: bored out of his mind :snowing: - was bound to invent Classicism. :music:

Q: What about Sammartini?!!
A: ... OK - it was a joined effort ;)


Even the tougher amongst us succumb to their Charm and good will.

Albeit - most cheerful people are sometimes the saddest ... :rose:


:headbang: :iconboo-plz: *Perpetually serene* Mike sends goosebumps & chills and makes blood curdle :flame:

with REQUIEM in C (y. 1771): :rose:…
and all power to him for writing GREAT :#1: string quintets and various other wooing compositions

including fun but nasty :poo: little canon… =P - which only shows that

despite reaching for the heights, we are still most earthly beings -
:iconiheartitplz: Jo's down-to-earth Wisdom rivals every first class philosopher: :rose:…

''Wein, Bad und Liebe soll dem Leben schädlich
sein; doch wird das Leben frisch durch Liebe, Bad und Wein.''

(* Wine, bath and love should be harmful to life;
but life becomes fresh by love, bath and wine - YES! *)
''... Depict Divinity through love and goodness'' :iconspreadmoreloveplz::iconstudmuffinplz:

- From ecstatic Joy to Tears -
- In a Twinkle of a phrase! -- Haydn brothers :heart: heartfelt MAGIC. - BRILLIANT! :love: Peace.


:bulletred: RULES:

1.) Close to zero censorship - with strong exceptions as followed:

1.1) respect the admins and members;

harsh language & bad manners shall not be tolerated.


NOTE #1: FOLDERS. Regarding style and era - one can't put music into shoe boxes
- always too great a mix; of traditions, of influences ...
However, there has to be some kind of order =P so that we find artworks we're looking for!

NOTE #2: :fuzzydemon: The more the better: if you wish to Join the Admin League,
let your intentions be known to us - so that we can thoroughly scrutinize ;) them first!




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belianis Featured By Owner May 31, 2016  Professional Traditional Artist
Hola on the 207th anniversary of FJH's death.
In many music stations Hummel is a one trick pony: the Trumpet Concerto, of course. The Weasels are more appreciative, particularly of his piano concerti. YouTube really loves the Man from Pressburg; they cherish his Masses and his chamber music.
This comes as no surprise, since the music of JNH is so warm and friendly. And that leads me to ask what kind of person Hummel was; was he as charming and personable as his music? 'tis really funny how the music of a composer sometimes does NOT reflect the personality of that composer. The music of FJH certainly reflects his witty clever personality, but how do you account for Bruckner? Who would think that such a shy diffident man was capable of such majestic visionary symphonies?
DarkSaxeBleu Featured By Owner Edited Jun 22, 2016  Hobbyist General Artist
Hello! And what better way to celebrate than to speak of music, ey?! Well, firstly, we often flatter ourselves that we somehow ''see into the composer's head'' - but we don't, not really. We are however, granted a peek into ours. And only from there can we seek similarities and differences with what a.) the composer did b.) he might have had in mind when writing these passages c.) what they actually are written and for themselves, d.) what rings out independently of us hearing it, e.) what is going on in our head and how we react to it, f.) etc., etc.

It was also Barrington who made a ''study'' of inherent patterns in music = how people inherently know from the first which melodies and tonal ways depict or represent for us listeners and for music-makers say: love.

But his study experiment was then almost 10 years old Mozart who has hung around musicians and opera since age 3 and who was by no standard a ''primal'' source: he was already conditioned by the culture he lived in. For Barrington's experiment to work, he would have to have worked with somebody who learned and made music exclusively on his own - without textbooks or people telling him/her/etc. what he hears and how he's supposed to react to it. A complete blank slate. If that's even possible.

What is for our ears and understanding witty or majestic - is for another person's brain patterns illogical and plain too loud. It's semantics and semiotics of music, it's perpetual duality and conflict - which are all located in one bit of what we hear - and hear differently. 

Hummel actually has a biography out, it's well written, but before we give him a complete thumbs up - he too was a child of an era and spoke ill of the Jews (back then this label was used almost as a predicate and could be worn by anybody, Chopin too is ''guilty'' of such speech, even more so).…

I also missed - or forgot - if the author gave any credit to Clementi: yes, he happily mentions the German masters (and Chopin), but Mozart takes the creme with 97 mentions (Hummel ''studied'' under messy and wilfully capricious Mozart for two years) but only a few lines and altogether 17 hits are given to Clementi - under whom Hummel studied properly and the longest: after Mozart and for 4 years regularly - and whose influence and elements, like in Beethoven, we can, or so we think ;P ~ hear. By the way, Salieri was Hummel's wedding witness and there's a really sweet note, a request written by Beethoven to Hummel, where play on words ''canonise'' has at least three meanings.

Aha, here we go: 

Haydn has 86 mentions, Schubert 45, same Schumann, Liszt 75 and Beethoven same as Mozart, 97. Salieri at least takes the 26, but Clementi, his most important teacher - is barely present.…   ... The very first line. He writes from his own intimate perspective though, maybe even resentment.

It's the same with Charlie Chaplin. I bet you didn't know that he mentally and physically abused his family. Or Klaus Kinski - he raped his daughter repeatedly. Look at the body language of the two Woody Allen daughters. Beethoven was a thoroughly unpleasant and rude man who beat his servants, many of them women. Joseph Haydn killed animals for sport. Michael Haydn had a seven years period when he drank himself to stupor. Mozart was a complete fraud and thief. Bach erupted if things were not as he wanted them to be. Wagner wore pink silk tutus. And so on. I don't mind the music - but I think we ought to know more about the artists too. That way we can be balanced in our thoughts and not over exaggerate either their person or their music. It's truly rare to find somebody who's well balanced in all earthly or spiritual things. So on one hand - all is human and calls for understanding. But it does not necessarily call for approval ... And Anton Schindler burned 2/3s of Beethoven-Konversationshefte --> hence the untarnished idol. Knowing more ought not to be prohibited and information ought to not be censored, manipulated and destroyed.

... I wouldn't be surprised if Beethoven's most used word some day turned out to be: 

''Das ist ein rechter Dreck! Gut für das Scheißpublikum!''

Well, that's my two pence on the matter.
Conlaodh Featured By Owner May 20, 2016  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Thanks for the request!
DarkSaxeBleu Featured By Owner May 23, 2016  Hobbyist General Artist
:D You're most welcome, thank you! :sun:
Guihena Featured By Owner May 20, 2016  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Thanks for the request on my humble work, such an honor!. :bow:
DarkSaxeBleu Featured By Owner May 23, 2016  Hobbyist General Artist
You're welcome! :) Glad to have found your work! :star:
Guihena Featured By Owner May 24, 2016  Hobbyist Digital Artist
You know?, I love Music, and for sure, the Classical one, and I even think that the compositions of everyone of the Great Masters are the best thing that has happened to this world... I see that this group and yourself think alike.

So, I'm curious, due to the complexity and the depth of those great musical compositions I mentioned, in comparison my humble work (the one you made me the honor of request it) is practically nothing, only a bunch of arpegios, running scales and fingering exercises with a little bit of melody... but, if I may ask, there's something on the simplicity of that work that called your attention, may I know what was it?...

Thanks Ardent for everything. Nod
DarkSaxeBleu Featured By Owner Edited May 25, 2016  Hobbyist General Artist
:D Hope this will answer your question!

Whenever somebody mentions so-called Great Masters, I silently cringe inside because music is not just a fistful of people (about 70 or so which make it to Top 50 lists) - it's :star: everybody and everything. 

For comparison: we have about 25.000 composers listed throughout history - and usual Earthling probably can't list 25 of them: this means that on the average we know less than 0.01% of the older musical world, and are speaking of those whom we do know - as ''Great'' and ignore everybody else. Case in point: remember how Wagner used to be hailed as one of originators of Leitmotiv and thus a Great innovator? Even the word today is German. Well, turns out that around 1782 it was already used by Parisian opera writers, Grétry and Salieri amongst them (maybe even sooner and by who knows whom.) We do know that Wagner studied old operas - he took what he deemed useful from others and adapted it for his own gigs. And in one of the 19th century books Alessandro Scarlatti, father of ''more splendid'' Domenico, is described as ''mediocre'' writer for the harpsichord which is just not worth the bother:


.... This is why it's important to not believe everything one reads in a book and release them ears to seek magic and sounds for themselves! :giggle:

Another thing is that - if it's tough to follow all metal bands nowadays, how can we follow thousands of historical people who don't even have a CD out?! Still, through my experience I've noticed that :rose: every person has something to offer - even if only a single song: if they have it in them, well then, it has to get out! In the world! :) To roam our plain freely like the wildebeest! For their sake as well as ours! ;P ... And many of the ''Great'' composers knew this VERY well and have learned from them - we can in fact spot this throughout their works - especially, for instance, in Mozart's:


This is very old news and has been known when the man was still alive. So knowing things like that - the music itself never changes - but it makes us re-think the empty predicate of ''Greatness'' and just how beautifully we're all connected - which manifests itself time and time again especially through music.

:sun: We don't need unreachable heroes - we only need (to understand) each other.
Having said all that, my forte is music of the 18th century, one of its features being that it's often very simplistically written. For instance: one of the famous sopranos was offered to sing Salieri's Falstaff - but she refused saying ''There's nothing to sing here'' - meaning as a soprano just some lovely lyricism won't do, nay, she needs to show off her top form as a complex coloratura and durability and whatnot and just simple pretty tunes won't do. ... Well now. The Karmic lesson for humanity offered through 18th century was precisely that - like J. Haydn noticed - the pages do not need to be all ink-blotted and crammed with notes - and the vocal soloist ought to not compete with the orchestra for the audience's attention - but that beautiful simplicity has it's say in delight-that-it-music as well! The opera, albeit already in Baroque quite industriously produced, was a major and well respected thing back then and the librettos got almost always printed (but not so the music - it was the words that mattered and to which many composers of the era obliged.) But the opera imprinted the importance of melodic lines (not necessarily of the catchy-melodies-kind) and from this tradition we have much more loudly/heavily orchestrated Verdi, Puccini and Wagner. (Plus in the 18th century Vienna had to save money and they, contrary to 1785 Paris (and I think Mannheim), did not have more than 50 heads in the orchestra, but only about 28. So the economy in the actual theatre may have been reflected in music as well. When you hear works from that period Vienna, keep this in mind!)

Point being ~ in your piece, even if through exercises, you have captured the budding 18th century musician perfectly! :)

Now, as a further exercise for you and if you're willing - here's a puzzle for you which well educated musicologists do not wish to touch with a ten foot pole:


According to the 18th century rules, which of the three composers does everything that needs to be done in accordance with all of the above - most clearly? ;P
(1 Reply)
belianis Featured By Owner Apr 5, 2016  Professional Traditional Artist
Today, four questions about opera.
1. THE BARBER OF SEVILLE starts with a very catchy overture and one of the most memorable arias in opera--a favorite of cartoon animators. One would think that the rest of the opera could not live up to such an amusing start; Rossini, however, pulls the miracle of creating an opera so entertaining that even people who don't care about opera love it. That leads me to THE PEARL FISHERS: does the entire opera live up to the standard of the Temple Duet? Would you say it compares well to CARMEN, another opera beloved even by people who do not care for opera?
2. WIPR-FM dedicated a late night weekly show to opera, which I listened regularly since I needed to stay awake to deliver my newspaper route. One night the opera was PARSIFAL. I listened attentively for two hours to what I assumed was the entire opera, so imagine my astonishment when the moderator announced the end of the first act. A FIRST ACT THAT LASTS TWO HOURS??? How long was this opera?! It was midnight, so I continued listening, and was very drowsy by the time Parsifal's lance cures the wound of Amfortas.
Honestly, why is Wagner so longwinded? Why did it take him an average of four hours to tell stories that Verdi and Puccini could easily dispatch in about two?
DarkSaxeBleu Featured By Owner May 16, 2016  Hobbyist General Artist
YOU - have been waiting for a long time for an answer - and I really wished to *give you one* - but - I absolutely had no time available to listen through Rossini. Before going through that ordeal, one should, of course, go through Paisiello first. ... Had ZERO time for this version too! So. There be very short and very long operas roaming about the wilderness - it depends on which captures you by your sleeve the most. The shortest I know of are by Milhaud, Hindemith - and whatever this monstrosity is:


so who's to say how long any music ought to be?

In some long lost village in Europe (or wherever) one of Bach's pieces is currently being performed on the organ:

it's music on dis-play - being automatically played. It will take about 150 or so years to finish? So, through the whole temporal deal we, mere mortals, completely loose the wholesomeness of the composition and get caught in one of its details - which is really macro plane trying to depict a micro one, but we also win (through exact definition) and loose (though not being able to capture it all) our subjectivity as per how long such a composition ought to be played.

:iconorgelplz:  ... Bach's Longest Organ indeed ... :iconorgelplz: 

So, I suggest that you find that little pleasure or interest in any-which sound that comes your way! ... We have learned to ignore so much already ... And we definitely can't take in everything. Find the measure that works for you!

After all, :opera: Wagner did the same ... ;P
belianis Featured By Owner Mar 7, 2016  Professional Traditional Artist
I discovered the Haydn Masses through the TIME-LIFE LIBRARY OF MUSIC of the early 70s. The MISSA IN TEMPORE BELLI was a revelation: religious music that actually sounded like MUSIC, instead of like an out of tune tone deaf choir reciting the Ordinary in a singsong, like the horrible BASSE MESSE of Faure!
Naturally I set out to discover the other Haydn Masses; the fugue of the second Kyrie of the MISSA CELLENSIS, the Kyrie of the HARMONIEMESSE, and the Gloria of the Mass of Saint Ursula move me to tears. THE CREATION and THE SEASONS, of course, added to the enjoyment.:D (Big Grin) :D (Big Grin) :D (Big Grin) :D (Big Grin) :D (Big Grin) 
How did you discover the Haydns in general, and their religious music in particular?
DarkSaxeBleu Featured By Owner Mar 23, 2016  Hobbyist General Artist
You asked something similar before so just trail back in our correspondence, that should explain the music bit. But there is also the history part so maybe more because of the history itself and ... logic ... in biographies; I like digging through history of music and claims of the composers as well as biographers (just recently I totally demolished Barrington's report on Mozart and one of Michael Kelly's anecdotes (which, as proved, never happened): people tend to lie or are misinformed and we, well, we too often just accept it without a question. While this may be nothing to loose one's hair about, still, why not work it a bit, maybe crack it all open.)

So, since we can't quite agree on everything ;) and here I do wonder what your view on the matter is ...

While I understand your emotion as per works of Joseph Haydn - that is - emotion linked to the music itself - I am not so certain that these justifiably also apply to the man.

Therefore I tend to have some reservations when speaking of the works of Joseph Haydn as his own:

a couple of years ago I picked up a CD with either Mysliveček or Koželuh's music (Mysliveček more likely) which has a certain piece recorded and the commentary is along the lines of:

''identical ... whether he or Haydn composed it first, we can not yet tell.''

So, one is naturally curious and nerd as I am, I saved up and just had to buy this:…

and more and listen to ever so much music under the name of Joseph Haydn.

... Then, inevitably, I personally found out, quite by coincidence, that one of Joseph Haydn's Razumovsky quartets is only a literal note for note adaptation of Tommaso Giordani's harpsichord concertos (both Op. 33.)

Then the curiosity got the better of me and I found out that from over 1200 works initially attributed to Joseph Haydn - 400 works have already been discredited as his and were written by other composers. And that the research into authorships is far from over.

Now, to better understand what these numbers mean:

400 works is 2/3 of Mozart's opus and 1/2 of Michael Haydn's opus and for many a composer about the total opus number of their own works: 138 Op. numbers + 277 WoO = 415 for Beethoven
who, according to Goethe (1819) ''is loved by the Viennese because he works so hard.'' And, contrary to both Haydn brothers, he had absolutely no duties to attend to other than to compose music and occasionally perform it.

Which begs the necessary question: which other works are also not by Joseph Haydn (but we don't yet know about it?)

My favourite work, attributed to Joseph Haydn, is 7 Last Words, which, if memory serves - is libretto-wise not only inconsistent with the Bible (many versions of these last words from many gospels, so who's to say what was really said - if anything) - but is also possibly NOT by Joseph Haydn:

work of the same title and, according to some researchers, also of the same music - was written not in 1786/87 by Joseph Haydn as claimed - but as an orchestral piece in 1784 by Andrea Luchesi.

This, as per Carpani, was later re-orchestrated into choral version - by Michael Haydn, who is, incidentally, composer of church coral music.

Joseph Haydn, in one of his most beautiful and simplistic works, had originally nothing to do with it. He, as in case of Giordani, only made a reduction for the string quartet (which, as claimed by some, sports many mistakes in composition.)

... My very private gut feeling also questions the ability of Joseph Haydn as fugue composer:

as part of exercises for Haydn, Beethoven had to write fugues from Fux. But (again, if memory serves - somebody else noticed this as I found it in one of Beethoven's biographies and possibly on official Beethoven web page as well) - Haydn not only failed to recognise that Beethoven note for note copied fugues from Fux' own examples - he also quickly directed Beethoven to Albrechtsberger - who was famed as a theorist and composer of the fugues: for Albrechtsberger, who really understood counterpoint, Beethoven had to truly sweat those fugues out (one of Beethoven's last fugues, Die Große Fuge, is on Albrechtsberger's theme - not on Haydn's.) Beethoven also claimed that from Haydn - he learned nothing - and, while Beethoven at age 39 still proclaimed himself as ''Salieri's pupil'' (!!! meaning that from 1792 to 1809 Beethoven was on and off learning from Salieri and was for 17 years not embarrassed to say so) one should ask oneself if the fairly ruthless and open criticism of Haydn as a teacher was very much justified. At age 24 or so Beethoven was, after all, already formed musician. (Later Beethoven obviously learned a lot from works (emphasis on quartets) which were printed under Haydn's name - but whether the author of these was in truth Haydn (like in the upper examples) - that we at the moment have no way of telling for sure. Haydn was also sued by Ignaz Pleyel because two of Pleyel's own quartets got printed under Haydn's name: to Pleyel this thieving Haydn's conduct, which Haydn tried to apologise for by blaming whomever sent those quartets to the publisher, was not acceptable. But we can see from at least two other examples that this is what Joseph Haydn did often enough - and himself directly - without such ''mistakes'' from said ''whoever'' being made. Pleyel also published one of Haydn's quartets in the set together with his own, maybe as a pay back, maybe as a provocation. It would be interesting to know if the court would also decide that the works of the master are works of his pupil. So, if we so change the perspective, here's to how silly the court's original decision really is.)

We now can pose a serious doubt whether or not Joseph Haydn was in fact a counterpuntist.

You love his fugue - but I think he had no idea how to write fugues.

Moreover, with music of Haydn's predecessor and counterpoint master Gregor Werner, to whom Haydn dedicated one of his Oratorios (with the fugue), I expect to learn that the fugues in works of Haydn - are in fact written by Gregor Werner (and Michael Haydn and ...) which were copied and/or adapted by Joseph Haydn. For comparison: Mozart too was incapable of writing a functional fugue and if anything, only included fugato seeing how the fugues he supposedly did write or adapt - were already authored by JS and WF Bach as well as Handel. But for example to Michael Haydn - fugues were, it seems, not a problem.

Whether or not Esterháza had anything to do with Joseph Haydn's works: of course it did, to have a prolific genius writing for the princely court can do only good. Hence Haydn's loyalty to his ''employers'': he, as their fellow Freemason, was their creation. It was the court which had the money to obtain the various scores, not Haydn. This too had to sport a dent in the princely purse. As per works, if we do the calculation:

for the mass of works initially attributed to Joseph Haydn (1200) it took him let's say 47 years (1756-1803):

that's 25,5 works per year or 2 and 1/4 each month. Many of these are not all little pieces but relatively complex multi-instrumented works. If you read a little about what the duties of a princely Kapellmeister were you'll see that it would have been impossible for Haydn to do the bureaucracy, make arrangements, explore musical works, practice music with the orchestra and soloists, arrange events and then perform music at the rate that he did - and then have just enough time to produce over 300 symphonies and endless strings of quartets and whatnot. And eat and sleep somewhere in between; Salieri's letter as Kapellmeister of Italian opera and Kapellmeister of Court Chapel from 1790 suggests that between his duties and the teaching he literally had zero free time, especially for writing music or being with his family. Whether similar could go for Esterháza Kapelle it would be interesting to know; when Salieri was writing his dramma for music Axur, he was bed ridden for two weeks - and even then he only wrote music for voices and basso continuo - without full orchestration - and even then not the complete operatic dramma. It took him months to polish and finish it. Plus do his job as Kapellmeister and conductor and ... So, however did, out of so many Kapellmeisters with similar fates, Joseph Haydn manage to write 1200 works or somewhere between 2 to 4 times as much as everybody else? At any rate, Simon Sechter beats this record with 8000 compositions: 5000 of which are fugues (one-per-day rule, who also completed at least two Mozart's own fugues from 1782 (K 153, 154), when the latter was 26 years old and maybe got distracted by a passing butterfly as per leaving them unfinished.)

So now we take the newest number of cca 800 works - that is 17 per year - or 1,4 works each month (more if the number is higher than 800.) ... Now we're getting somewhere.

For comparison: in 1785 Mozart's yearly average was 7 new and complete works (which are almost as per rule small pieces like dances, solo arias and minuets.) He was also writing the Figaro. And is considered
greatest and most prolific genius of all time, even greater and more prolific than Haydn. ... Interestingly, the same problem applies to Mozart's opus as well. But while Mozart managed measly 7 works - we are to believe that Haydn, in addition to his duties as a Kapellmeister, managed 17? ... It's 8,5 works drop from initial 25,5 which is already more than what Mozart wrote in that whole year.

Another thing is Maria Theresa: when she praised Esterházy opera - she did not praise Haydn's own operas - some of which are disputed as not his (DIe Feuerbrunst) - but the execution of operas at Esterházy court - under Haydn's leadership.

Then we have Haydn's own words: he ''writes'' to his brother that in 1803 he *hasn't written a note* - for months now he has been incapable of holding the pen - and yet we have strings of Lieder penned by the very Haydn and published in England. His handwriting has been shabby since at least 1792, possibly earlier. One of the letters from this era has only his shaky signature - the text itself was written by somebody else. So, did Haydn dictate the music (but why would he say he has not written a thing in the tone of ''I have not composed anything'', he certainly does not mention any compositions or projects) - or was it written by his students (like in case of Pleyel lawsuit result where, to save Haydn's reputation, the court decided that ''works of the pupil are works of his master'' and so belong to him and can be printed under master's name, not the pupils (who is the true author of the works)) - or was the music supplied to him (if so, this is surely not the only such example in extremely ''prolific'' career of one Joseph Haydn. Nor of many an other composer.)

Joseph Haydn as an Author is extremely problematic figure, especially of the Masses - some of which were written on Bonn paper. These are the inconsistencies which have already happened, I have nothing to do with them, I just notice them. 

Yes, I love some of the music which is printed under Joseph's name - but as far as professional ethics goes - at the moment I bet on his talented brother. Yet any way you turn it - they both learned from other composers as well as took ideas from these works - and, like with Mozart and Beethoven as well, we can hear that in their own works too. Michael however always admitted where he got his inspiration for 1771 Requiem which is also mentioned in his biography. Based on this I simply can't have my brain oriented only onto Haydn brothers (or whomever) - but onto as many composers as possible. It really is the right thing to do. ... After all, it's the very same thing ALL these Kapellmeisters themselves were doing! :wave:
belianis Featured By Owner Mar 30, 2016  Professional Traditional Artist
When did you discover that there was such a thing as happy sacred music? The anthems at my parish are so boringly monotonous that even a professional choir could not improve them, while the organist would make Daniel Chorzempa curse a purple streak.
MESSIAH was a revelation; when I first heard AND THE GLORY OF THE LORD SHALL BE REVEALED I was incredulous. Sacred music that is catchy and cheerful??? Can such an unlikely fancy be a solid happy reality?
DarkSaxeBleu Featured By Owner Mar 30, 2016  Hobbyist General Artist
Of course goodness and beauty deserve cheerful tones! :) And Missa Sancti Hieronymi comes to mind first! (Don't know why - it's utterly brilliant and this is the only thing a certain Leopold and I ever agree upon! ;P)

Sweet heavens! Do have a word with whomever chooses the program! Maybe the singers could be convinced that people will be more enthusiastic about the Light - were the melodies more lively and light!

:heart:… (Personally, this one completely shocked me! :lol: Whoever heard of a Requiem in Major key?!! Well, turns out it's not the only example, haha, wonderful!)

Depends of which school of thought your local parish hails from: if they be of such inclination, then monotony is what they stand for. So your job is to do some research into history of that particular clique - and see whether the music selection could possibly improve. It would be wise to start by chatting with the singers and digging through choral music web pages!

belianis Featured By Owner Feb 28, 2016  Professional Traditional Artist
The Weasels dedicate the noon hour to Mozart; unfortunately it's an empty gesture, because the pieces they play are the same instrumental pieces that they play at any other time of the day. They don't play what would make that hour really special, namely his vocal music. Of his religious music they only play LAUDATE PUERI DOMINUM from the second Vespers and AVE VERUM CORPUS because they are so short in length; as for his concert arias and operas, they only play the overtures to the latter. Apparently no one in Florida has ever watched AMADEUS, which emphasizes so much the operatic side of WAM.
A couple of years ago that Mozart Hour was really special, because the WAM was accompanied by a piece from a contemporary: JC Bach, Boccherini, the Haydn brothers, CP Stamitz, etc. Unfortunately the Weasels ruined that promising show by restricting it to an extremely limited assortment of concerti and symphonies; Stamitz, for example, was represented almost exclusively by his LA CHASSE Symphony; as for vocal music, not even a hint that the H brothers ever wrote any.
But what really made me boil with anger at the Mustelids was how they wasted the opportunity to honor Handel and FJH in the year of the Centennials of their deaths! 14 April 2009 should have been entirely dedicated to Herr Frideric; likewise 31 May 2009 should have been dedicated fully to Papa Haydn; remember how Pope Benedict celebrated Mass that day with the HARMONIEMESSE, which by happy coincidence is my favorite religious piece? The fact that they threw away an opportunity that won't be repeated until 2109 shows how truly oblivious they are to the art to which they pretend to be so devoted.:( (Sad) :( (Sad) :( (Sad) :( (Sad) :( (Sad) 
Isn't it a puzzlement, as Yul Brynner would put it, that people dedicated to music are so utterly clueless? My degree is a BA, which means I'm not an expert in music, yet I'm positive that my input would improve the Mustelid channel a thousand times. You should get in touch with the Weasels, the Skunks, the Martens, the Rodents, the Ferrets, and the Mustelids of Sarasota; your input would improve their station a million times!:) (Smile) :) (Smile) :) (Smile) :) (Smile) :) (Smile) 
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