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On libretto by DA PONTE - a welcome DISCOVERY!!! :rose: :)

But ... What the #€ŁŁ was it doing in Prague?!!! ... CHEERS for stashing it!!! :heart:
:bulletorange: :iconcomposerlaplz:…

As per who the THIRD one is, Cornetto, a croissant?! Some say Storace, but surely he would have signed his proper name ...

I, very privately, wonder if it could be a word play, cornetto/cornuto =P Finger of suspicion might point to an aristocrat! :giggle:

:music: :star: :iconmozartplz: :w00t: :party::fish::sun::woohoo: :iconsalieriplz: :star: :music:

... People of the World!!! So much richness still resides in the Libraries!!! GO AND HAVE A SNOOP!!!! :star:

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:iconjosephhaydnplz::iconburningheartplz::iconmichaelhaydnplz::iconsaysplz:... WELCOME! ;)

... Saturated FOOD for THOUGHTS ...

Always something new here ... We edit as we hop along!


:bulletpink: NOT for the faint of heart: Scepticism and Revisionism: Taboga & Luchesi controversy:… (feel free to ask questions regarding!) It may help clear up or discover a few things, probably shave off of *arranger* Joseph's opus extra 400 works too. Not to speak of the rest of the musical world ... Here's Haydn & Pleyel case, insight into copyright-pre-copyright:… See *New Grove Haydn* 2002 onwards for attributions, spurious or ''with his approval'' works, etc.:… ... Chill, this goes for many a composer - good to know! This group truly accepts ALL music(-related stuff)!

... With THIS hot topic taken care of ~ put on your wig and let's dig the gig! ;)

:bulletgreen: *In Search of Haydn* -…
(you'll need to install IP-changing program to watch if outside USA.)

:bulletgreen: Also BBC:…

:bulletgreen: 3SAT (in German language):…

:bulletgreen: Kids these days ... FAN! - documentary:…

:bulletgreen: ... PUPPET OPERAS! - ''Haydns Nacht'' can be bought at: *… or *…

:star: MUSEUMS and HOUSES: HaydnHaus Wien:… * HaydnHaus Eisenstadt: * Mike Haydn Society: * Mike Haydn Salzburg Museum:…

:bulletgreen: FORUMS, SOCIETIES: Haydnesque Forum:… * JH Great Britain: * North America www.haydnsocietyofnorthamerica… * Handel & Haydn Society: * Mike H: * 2009 Haydn BLOG:

:star: BooKs, INFO pages:

:bulletgreen: MICHAEL Haydn's SCORES, enter keywords at your convenience:…

:bulletgreen: A well of wisdom, history and knowledge: selection of Haydn's LETTERS (Eng.):… &… (82!!!)

:bulletgreen: Kenneth Woods Blog:… :heart:

:bulletgreen: Bits about the quartets:…

:bulletgreen: Haydn Database:…

:bulletgreen: Fine ''HAYDN STUDIES'' (& so on, just click the book covers, via Google books):… or *Search inside* ... & ''Haydn SYMPHONIES'', spurious or otherwise, by Landon:… (neat case-file! See also: Haydn: Chronicle and Works. If you find it.) Haydn & Classical Variation:…

:bulletgreen: Heaps of FREE books, scores and whatnot from……

:bulletgreen: Complete Jo Haydn bookography from OpenLibrary:…
and Mike Haydn:

:bulletgreen: Downloadable PDF: Joseph Haydn und sein Bruder Michael: zwei Bio-bibliographische Künstler-Skizzen:…

:bulletgreen: Downloadable PDF: Joseph Haydn's English Diary (1794-95):…

:bulletgreen: LISTS of compositions: MIKE:… JO:…

:bulletgreen: JO short BIO's:… &… &… MIKE's on Mozart forum:…

:star: Pretty close, albeit un-pockmarked likeness: Anton Grassi, cca 1799.

:star: SCORES and musical ARTICLES:

:bulletgreen: Article: Haydn-the-Yurodivy:…

:bulletgreen: Article: Haydn & Canon:…

:bulletgreen: Article: Haydn & Opera:…

:bulletgreen: Score: Canons from around the world:… (various composers, Hayd.& Moz.) JO's Canons (in handwriting):… list of:…

:bulletgreen: Mike H. Collection (small, *sob*):,…

:bulletgreen: Jo H. Collection (extensive, yay!):,… & list:…

:star: MUSIC:

:bulletgreen: Michael: (27 symphonies, Divertimento's, Serenade, 3X Masses, 2 Requiems, 4 concerts & misc.):…

:bulletgreen: Joseph (1165 files, so dig in!):…
He was NOT the ''father of symphony'' - Sammartini and others were:… Haydn learned/copied from them (as even the great CPE had considerable doubts into his own abilities - whether or not his works will reach the standard set for his listeners by GBS.)


:bulletpink: Fun ;) and eerie :fuzzydemon: ANECDOTES:

;) Jo Haydn and Wolf Mozart had TWIN pianos.

;) Bursting a bubble: the way I heard it growing up:…

;) Somehow, Jo got credited with 240 + symphonies. Of which he ''only'' wrote about 106.

;) Michael Haydn DETESTED plagiarism; as a young boy he founded society which detected nicking of themes, melodies & music by other composers - he demanded Original Creativity = a trademark throughout his life. The ONE article that explores possibility of Haydn recanting, is:…
~ And, when push comes to shove =P I found J. A. Hasse's Requiem from 1763, second 1 minute long bit. Short, but essentially the same - Michael's Req-in-C sequence. Gotcha!

:fuzzydemon: TWO in one go - pardon - grave: Maria Anna (Marianne, Nannerl) Mozart and Mike Haydn share the SAME *six-feet-under*:… which may imply they were musical colleagues and equals. Due to a fellow who wanted to study the ''musical bump'' on Jo's head, mausoleum now holds TWO skulls: his & ''fake''…. Curiously, Mike too got parted with his head; deeply grieving widow asked for permission to nick & clean it: she then kept her husband's skull right at her side - on the night stand (it was put in the urn on top of the monument erected in his memory - now it's under lock and key in a safe), while his :heart: heart is kept separately in a shrine in St. Peter's Churchyard Cemetery in Salzburg. He was much loved and, despite ''excessive wine (and beer and ...) episodes and a musical style that was never far from a tavern or a dance hall'' (really, a waltz in a mass?!! - COOL!) - RESPECTED (so that's why his bits are scattered all over the place! Must be a good luck charm.)

:bulletpink: Did-You-Know's:

- That around 1780, newly written Church edict demanded that the church music should be from then on composed in entirely simple manner (no fugues, no huge orchestra, ah, life of a Kapellmeister had to suck big time ... *snores*)

Random from Favourites

:iconflowersplz: Feel free to SUGGEST ARTWORKS for this folder!



:bulletblue: Nicely formed, witty and elegant. ... Rollin'& chillin'!!! Group is broadly based, thanks for stopping by!:wave:

:iconmusicnotesplz::iconchampagneplz:... Now that we got your attention :D

- a cheerful group of cosy proportions, dedicated to bubbly brothers

:empllama:JOSEPH and MICHAEL -- HAYDN:emplllama:

HAYD'N ... seek by DarkSaxeBleu ... The OTHER ... Haydn by DarkSaxeBleu

... :rose: (who do not only ''share'' in the *AWESOME* - but EACH ADDS EXTRA to it!)

... With heaps of other pickled Curiosities! :jarkinajar: (Feel FREE to suggest them!)

:iconrainbow-pplz::iconrainbow-aplz::iconrainbow-rplz::iconrainbow-tplz::iconrainbow-yplz: .. :iconrainbow-oplz::iconrainbow-nplz::iconrainbow-exclamation:

While tipsy Michael, admired & frequently copied :squee: by Mozart,

retained his dignity & cool with awesome FUGUES and major SACRAL works,

frisky Joseph, true to the Form, Logic and Balance -

wrote jolly gorgeous! concertos for *HURDY-GURDY* =P

and Operas for Prince Nikolaus' *PUPPET* theatre.

* ... Cricket sound ... * :lol: :bulletgreen:… :iconkermityayplz:
(... Here's a hint: if it sounds ridiculous:icontrollfaceplz:- it probably is;

Jo's frequently using irony; making ACID jokes and poking fun out of his audience; after all,

writing music-to-order can be rather depressing, especially in a mosquito ridden swamp

combined with shortage of desirable women. Oh, the tragedy. :nuu:)


While Mikey was pretty much dignified, stuck in his own demanding stylish branch,

after all - he had to live up to the ultra-prominent position of Konzertmeister (etc.) in Salzburg -

mostly autodidactic Jo had a bit of a bug up his aR$€ during the creative period

and looked everywhere (chiefly in himself) for new expressions in music -

seriously: stuck in a bog, :hexentanz: bored out of his mind :snowing: - was bound to invent Classicism. :music:

Q: What about Sammartini?!!
A: ... OK - it was a joined effort ;)


Even the tougher amongst us succumb to their Charm and good will.

Albeit - most cheerful people are sometimes the saddest ... :rose:


:headbang: :iconboo-plz: *Perpetually serene* Mike sends goosebumps & chills and makes blood curdle :flame:

with REQUIEM in C (y. 1771): :rose:…
and all power to him for writing GREAT :#1: string quintets and various other wooing compositions

including fun but nasty :poo: little canon… =P - which only shows that

despite reaching for the heights, we are still most earthly beings -
:iconiheartitplz: Jo's down-to-earth Wisdom rivals every first class philosopher: :rose:…

''Wein, Bad und Liebe soll dem Leben schädlich
sein; doch wird das Leben frisch durch Liebe, Bad und Wein.''

(* Wine, bath and love should be harmful to life;
but life becomes fresh by love, bath and wine - YES! *)
''... Depict Divinity through love and goodness'' :iconspreadmoreloveplz::iconstudmuffinplz:

- From ecstatic Joy to Tears -
- In a Twinkle of a phrase! -- Haydn brothers :heart: heartfelt MAGIC. - BRILLIANT! :love: Peace.


:bulletred: RULES:

1.) Close to zero censorship - with strong exceptions as followed:

1.1) respect the admins and members;

harsh language & bad manners shall not be tolerated.


NOTE #1: FOLDERS. Regarding style and era - one can't put music into shoe boxes
- always too great a mix; of traditions, of influences ...
However, there has to be some kind of order =P so that we find artworks we're looking for!

NOTE #2: :fuzzydemon: The more the better: if you wish to Join the Admin League,
let your intentions be known to us - so that we can thoroughly scrutinize ;) them first!




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belianis Featured By Owner Jan 26, 2016  Professional Traditional Artist
It's known by now that the 96th Symphony is not the one where the Miracle of the falling chandelier happened, so what nickname should be given instead to it? How about the Faerie Symphony? The Vivace has a Mendelssohnian spirit that suggests faeries dancing in a faerie circle (amazing how Mendelssohn-Bartholdy has become synonymous with faeries).
DarkSaxeBleu Featured By Owner Jan 26, 2016  Hobbyist General Artist
... Cheers, Belianis!

Naming music is surely no simple task: besides, putting words into music may well be easier than putting music into words! But hey, even words don't always say what they mean and we must be a bit cunning when deciphering either! As Messiaen says, ''we can observe the technique'' ~ and everything else ~ is yet another inspiration! :)
belianis Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2016  Professional Traditional Artist
You know how some people regard Haydn as Mozart lite, even to the point that one music teacher actually gave his pupils the assignment of composing a minuet in the style of Mozart AND Haydn--as if their styles were interchangeable!
Which brings me to der Mann von Magdeburg, Telemann; when did he start to be appreciated for himself, instead of being dismissed as imitation JS Bach? His WIKI bio mentions that several critics who were hostile to GPT suffered the embarrassment of praising as great JSB pieces that later turned out to be the work of Herr GPT. OOPS!
DarkSaxeBleu Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2016  Hobbyist General Artist

Fingers crossed, hope you'll tell me how you did! :) 

What he meant was probably generally the style of composing in the *period* of Mozart and Haydn - but with language semantics this can be tricky to express. Albeit I suppose we get the picture of what is requested of us a lot quicker when we link the noun ''menuetto'' with nouns which substitute a period in which these were composed and so tools and manners in which compositions were fared = ''Mozart and Haydn'' - which is music we usually or at least often hear from that period. So it's not menuets of, say, Lully (which would be interchangeable with, say, baroque ballet - and which would immediately hit us as such.) Unfortunately, periods became synonymous with a handful of composers ~ and they're not even periods, it's not like somebody took a knife to time and cut it in bits and pieces ~ elements change and go on, disappear and are re-excavated, ...

At any rate, without previous knowledge in science of composition, in manners of writing (most common traits which composers often tend to repeat) and without actually knowing certain compositions - it's often really tough to tell apart who wrote what and when (and for whom to play which often decides on difficulty of the piece). Does similarity imply imitation? It implies certain tools and ways of writing were present and there for all to choose from and composer's familiarity with them. 

In one of the Encyclopaedias Alessandro Scarlatti is described as being ''inferior'' to Domenico in field of harpsichord composition.…

So, to extrapolate on your question: how long must we believe in what we are told and taught? And why can't we just leave people to compose as they wish - or as they had to compose - or even didn't compose?! =P There's so much music to go around! So much history to explore!

Maybe, considering this was the beginning of the 20th century, Telemann's sin was too little ''germanity'' and too much of multiculturalism. Bach too took from par example - the Italian masters - but these works even in cca 2008 by Deutsche Schallplatten Berlin pass only as Bachs, when we already know for ages that these concerts are transcriptions of Vivaldi and Marcello. And it's not the first time that people need to demolish a certain person - in order to rise another above even what they consider a most serious ''competition'' (even I am in danger of doing that, at times. It's very easy to give in to various feelings of justice and upset-ness when attempting to search for truth - and especially when then one feels one must *judge* - it takes a while for clarity and calm to kick in.) ... Think it's just easier for everybody if we categorise people - as if something like this is ever possible. Everybody share their distinctions and similarities - what's fun is looking for these and more - not tearing people down or raising them up because of this or that detail.

Is Beethoven's Third movement any the worse if its's a faithful copy of Clementi's? No. It's just as effective and a variation on a theme. (Remember what fuss he did with Mozart?! Clementi was Beethoven's UK publisher and so, indirectly, made a point in keeping him on tight copyright leash.)

And is Queen of the Night coloratura bit any the worse if we hear it note for note over 70 years earlier in one of Handel's works? I don't think so. But isn't it darn cool to know that that's where Mozart could have got it from? :D

That's what music is about. It brings people together and we can hear the sociology of it in itself.

ani110 Featured By Owner Dec 23, 2015  Student Traditional Artist
Thank you very much for adding my Hannibal piece :D This group seems absolutely fantastic, very different and original. 
DarkSaxeBleu Featured By Owner Dec 24, 2015  Hobbyist General Artist
... Rock on, Sir Tony! :D Ahaha, yes, we're an all-around enthusiastic bunch! Thank you for your kind words ~ and especially for accepting our request!!! :star: :holly:
ani110 Featured By Owner Dec 25, 2015  Student Traditional Artist
Haha indeed! :D not at all, thank you :wave:
belianis Featured By Owner Dec 13, 2015  Professional Traditional Artist
Is it true that Frank Vincent Zappa said that music was the creation of guys in wigs and cravats? That is quite the compliment to the musicians of the centuries preceding the XIX century! Did you know that Schumann considered JS Bach to be the founder of music, exactly as if he had singlehandedly invented everything related to the art of Cecilia? Obviously Zappa was better informed than Herr Robert Alexander.
DarkSaxeBleu Featured By Owner Edited Dec 14, 2015  Hobbyist General Artist
Another excellent thought! :nod: If I remember correctly he said that ''all good music'' has already been written by the people in wigs or some such.

Currently, the German musicologists especially are trying to debunk the Legend of Bach, ever since it has become quite clear that many of ''his'' important works are not well traceable to his pen strokes and are in fact a.) not in his handwriting b.) not in his style c.) were written by other composers d.) are transcriptions of works of other composers e.) are works of his students and/or family members or worshippers f.) were falsely printed under his name by greedy publishers g.) and so on. It's been going on for decades now, at least since ''those funky 70's'' - and, as much good as they've done for musicology, we have Forkel and others to thank for the ''unsurpassed authority'' figure of such questionable description which they have created, sold to us and so left us stuck with for ever and after. At the moment, mausoleums and places of worship are being reassessed and deconstructed as we're learning that music is a much larger notion than what we usually see for us prepared, represented and stated.

Speaking of Cecilia, Salieri writes (A-F&D:204,205 Translation, [my comments in these brackets]): 

''In which then is he in love? Not in any, I respond, or maybe in his contradictory literature on matter of music. [ =P (Razz) Same problem existed even then!] But let us leave these most learned words to write knowingly of this divine art whatever they want. A true teacher [master] must respect, love and study all kinds of genre from the most funny to the most sublime (all are gifts from God) he enriches with their particular beauties his own spirit, and takes advantage of the time and place: this is my Rule [norm, principle] and to this I gratefully stand by. A wide variety of delights: God has placed in all the cores He created. ... When you hear a beautiful music which enchants, that enraptures, you shout: heavenly! angelic! divine! Of what kind can you say that! Certainly not that of the ancient *stiffness and tastelessness of Gothic buildings and paintings of the era alike.* [Note that he uses German language for this part - which he therefore associates with the three adjectives!] Of which music must I believe that St. Augustine has said: that God sees in it something of the goodness of our soul, and that we see there something of the goodness of God? Respect therefore: Variety, variety, variety to the example of Creator: but, as intended [/with understanding], with what judgement God gave us at our birth for rules and norms of our work.''  [... = ALL music has something to offer, even the stiff one. ;) (Wink) ]

If so, Schumann was a child of his age and geography. I'd say Zappa has a point and yes, some les miserables who toiled away in music business happened to have been wigged and stuff while writing or making music. But again, will leave the whole notion of ''great and greatness'' out of the argument. Currently, a clever little theory in physics suggests what Tesla already said: ''Everything is light, frequency and sound.'' ... Everything. You, me, we literally are music.

Pondering just how ''great'' or not that supposedly is - and consequently what is great music and what not - and to go even further: what is music and what is not - is of no use. (It may, however, in ones own orderly and hierarchical system of values, make an individual feel warm and fuzzy inside.) :lol: :star:
belianis Featured By Owner Dec 6, 2015  Professional Traditional Artist
If I were the Kapellmeister of the Mustelids:
I would never play the same piece twice in the same year
I would play other pieces of the composers who are usually represented only by one work; for example, I would play the ten symphonies of the author of the Romanian Rhapsodies, which richly deserve a long rest
I would honor great composers by dedicating their birthdays entirely to their music; 22 Nov, for ex., would be dedicated to Britten and Rodrigo
What else would you suggest?
DarkSaxeBleu Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2015  Hobbyist General Artist
Still running with the weasels, ha?! Well, they're admirable creatures,
cute and fluffy and dangerously carnivorous too. Hmm, always active, always different ...
you'd have your calendar full, no doubt about that :D I'd go in for leisurely lectures on the topic,
especially on the history of these works, contemporaries and composition techniques,
(something to the effect of Barenboim's classes on Beethoven's sonatas
(only with more info on ''other people'' as well.))
And, of course, for big juicy doughnuts or such appropriate and obligatory pastry, somewhere along the way.

... Think you'd make an amazing Kapellmeister, sir! :nod: You can always post a journal entry here to similar effect ...
belianis Featured By Owner Dec 21, 2015  Professional Traditional Artist
I will have to make my own station, because, after years of dissatisfaction, I have finally given up on the Mustelids.
More than a week ago, the masterpiece chosen for the 1900 hrs. Masterpiece show was the violin concerto of Myaskovsky, whom the announcer praised as an heroic principled individual who stood up to Dzhugachvili and Zhdanov. At first I was pleased that that neglected friend of Prokofiev and Shostakovich had been given his chance to shine, but as I listened I recognized the piece as the ONE AND ONLY Myaskovsky that the Weasels ever played.
I was so outraged at that affront to this distinguished author of twenty seven great symphonies that I wanted to go to Sarasota to pull a Saint Bernardino at WSMR-FM!!!
Now I'll have to start from scratch, looking for talent that may be as interested in exploring music to its depth as is the case with me. Meanwhile, I'm sticking to YOUTUBE, whose fare, unlike the stale superannuated cooking of the Mustelids, is fresh and exciting.
DarkSaxeBleu Featured By Owner Jan 11, 2016  Hobbyist General Artist
... Like this fellow did! 

DarkSaxeBleu Featured By Owner Dec 21, 2015  Hobbyist General Artist
Well thought of! :clap: ... Go for it! Do it! :star:

This is great news indeed! Here's the idea in its clearer form: 

since you'd like to connect with co-enthusiasts - checking out many a folk's YT and other accounts is definitely a good way to go about it: there's plenty of people out there who are, often solo, tackling either whole as of yet unrecorded scores (converting and transcribing them to various composer-programs which substitute for real-life performance), or are basically making their life-time's work on bits like:… preping and recording them - then there are whole hoards of musicologists who work independently from institutions (like Michael Lorenz) as well as whole associations (like Vivaldi's Women), then official institutions are changing their approach to a more inclusive one and so forth ... The field of research has moved from what was pre-packed for consumers - to active research made by people themselves (like Steven Hancoff and his new work on Bach/Casals or to his thesis contrary last year's presentation by Martin Jarvis or just…) - it's quite encouraging! And beautiful. :rose: A bit of courage then, leave the comments, send notes and questions - get to know them better - these are genuinely kind people who love what they do (and, fortunately - love talking about it at great length! :) ) Now is most assuredly a proper time for such projects.

Apart from YT and other video sites, here are many more specialised sites where you can broadcast your podcasts as well, I too 've been thinking about putting together a group of various talents which would then tackle this or that problem or peculiarity - or just whatever comes along. But, like the naughty weasels ;P, any such project will have its limits and while it can do heck A LOT of good - it, realistically, very likely won't be able to do everything ... While it' may not be all-powerful - it could still have many well created ideas - thus it's driving force would be well used as it would add many neat stuff to our world; which would be awesome.

Think about it, let me know what you decide, maybe I too could contact a couple of folks and together we could (at least brainstorm and) add to diversity ...
belianis Featured By Owner Sep 26, 2015  Professional Traditional Artist
Speaking of, one of its most interesting contributors is UnsungMasterworks, a guy who posts symphonies and other works by unknown contemporaries of Wagner, Brahms, and R Strauss.
Which have impressed you favorably? I have already listened to all the symphonies of Enescu and Raff, plus several people who strike me as basically competent but unoriginal imitators of their contemporaries who are a part of the regular repertoire. There is a Russian, Kalinnikov, whose 1st Symphony has been performed by the Mustelids in an evening program dedicated to masterpieces--undeservedly, in my opinion, since said piece is no more than what you would expect from a contemporary of Chaikovsky and Rimsky-Korsakov.
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